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DRESSCODE- BLUE TIE AND MALE

By Christiane Vejlø

Damn! I did not know the dress code was blue tie and male. I am at Dell’s big summit with Michael Dell in Copenhagen. Here we learn how to say “shut up bitch” and that women don’t belong in tech. (original post in danish)

Deep buzzing voices from suits and blue ties run through the halls. I am wondering where they are hiding the women. All I see is smiling PR girls handing out name tags. But then I see them. A handful of female Dell employees hidden in suits and blue scarfs.

Founder and CEO Michael Dell is in town to talk to 800 partners, customers and Dell employees (not that I am any of that, but I am however invited). Registration is at 11 am and the Michael Dell keynote is at 1 pm. But Dell has hung up colorful ballons so I am having a ball waiting.

Finally just before 1 pm the doors open and people enter the big conference room. Loud music and a well produced commercial on big screen provides the feeling of a rock concert (without the beers).

At 1.02 pm the danish VP Henrik Thomsen enters the stage to introduce Michael Dell (and to warn people not to get to close to the blue polyester ties; he recognizes the fire hazard).

Michael Dell is the man who founded the computer company since 1987 know as Dell. He is a big star on the international tech scene and number 41 on Forbes list of billionairs. I take a seat in the first row and hope it will rub off.

Michael Dell arrives and I note that he somehow avoided the polyester tie (must be the advantage of owning the room).

Mr. Dell talks about IT and cloud and mentions that Dell does a lot of work with Twitter and Facebook and eBay. He also mentions a few Danish customers such as Grundfos and Copenhagen Airport. The program says Mr. Dell  will be talking for 40 minutes. He talks for 20 minutes. I am not sure excatly about what, but it is often like that with CEOs and he looks like a nice guy so we all applaud with great enthusiasm when he leaves the stage.

But then it starts to get bizarre. The moderator of the day is introduced. Mads Christensen. I slowly realize; THAT Mads Christensen. A media personality known (among many other charming traits) for his very conservative and critical approach to women in the work place.

So here I am at Dell’s huge and very professional summit with founder Michael Dell, top people from Microsoft and Intel, impressive power points, expensive commercials, matching polyester ties and all that jazz, and then the – by Dell chosen – moderator starts to rejoice the lack of women in the room. “The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy” he says. “What are you actually doing here?” he adds to the few women who are actually present in the room. 

Dell’s moderator continues talking about his two Rolex watches and he then presents the next speaker from Intel. After the break Mads Christensen shares with us his whole “show” about the bitchy women who want to steal the power in politics, boards and the home. “Science” he calls it and mentions that all the great inventions come from men. “We can thank women for the rolling pin,” he adds.  And then the moderator of the day finishes of by asking all (men) in the room to promise him that they will go home and say, “shut up bitch!”.

I turn pale. Not because I am personally offended. I know Mads Christensen and what he stands for and I don’t usually pay much attention to what he says. I am pale because I am in a state of chock realizing that a large professional company as Dell will conciously hire someone with the well known agenda Mads Christensen has.

What happend in that meeting where that decision was made?

PR 1: We need a moderator too. Someone that can present the speakers and entertain a bit.

PR 2: How about that Mads Christensen guy? He is pretty funny right? He always talks about how women are pissed off all the time and that they should stay away from the male jobs.

PR 1: That’s a great idea. Totally in line with the Dell values. Maybe he can even do something funny about the IT business still being so wonderfully free of women? Then it will be spot on!

PR 2: I’ll make the call!

I have a really hard time seeing how the communication team in such a big organization can justify booking a speaker/moderator that always talks with the agenda that women should shut up and men should learn to tell them that.

I talk to a female Dell employee and she assures me that this is not how it is working for Dell.  I did not think so, and that is why I am so extremely baffled that a tightly run company like Dell would approve the booking of a speaker that to an audience of 800 (mainly men) with 100% certainty will talk about how women should be kept down. The IT business is already lacking women, so I should not think that any company is in need of being associated with that kind of message.

I try and fail in getting an opportunity to ask Michael Dell if he thinks it is wonderful that “Keep the IT business free from women as long as you can” was said on stage right after he left.

I do get to talk to Dell’s danish CEO Nicolai Moresco who of course tells me that Dell is very happy about all the female employees and that they even have a lot of initiatives and networks.  He eventually says he can follow my perspective, but he explains that he was only chosen to entertain and warm up the crowd and he thinks that he succeeded doing that. “To stay within code of conduct I don’t want to comment on what you just said. But you did a good job” was he finishing line to the moderator of the day.

We continue to talk about Dell’s many social media initiatives and I ask why @Delllytter (Dell listens) did not listen today when Twitter went red hot over the tweets that came out from the Dell summit.

“They will react,” Moresco promised me. And they did. At 5.26 pm Dell wrote. ”@christianevejlo we are sorry if some were offended. Dell works for women in corporate life. Read more here.” (Twitter did not seem to think that was quite enough response).

And the sad thing was that talking computers and Dell strategy with CEO Nicolai Moresco was actually really interesting. But alas- that did not become the story today.

For a more in deepth analysis on why this case is so problematic go to this follow up post. 

Update 14. May 2012, 21.53 Copenhagen.

Dell Head Quarters now officially acknowledge “insensitive and inappropriate remarks about women” at DK summit and apologizes. 

 

111 kommentarer til DRESSCODE- BLUE TIE AND MALE

  1. Pingback: Dresscode: Blåt slips og mand |

  2. Peter H. skriver:

    Ok, this needs to stop. I was there and what Mads Christensen (a comedian) said was highly ironic and actually an appraisal for women in tech and a wake-up call for their male colleagues.

    This is the sad result of a blogger’s desire for attention for generating traffic to her blog. Nothing else. Please make the stupidity stop!

    • christiane skriver:

      Hi Peter
      Thank you for your comment. Just for the record. Mads Christensen is NOT a comedian although he might aim to entertain while talking. He is an opioniated mediapersonality these days mostly known on Google for provocative statements like black people look like monkeys, that the Utøya victims were weak and should have defended themselves against Breivik and that women are gaining too much power and men should learn to tell them to shut up. He has had to publicly apologize all of this. If you would like to read more about why I think it is a problem for an american otherwise professional company to have this brand moderate a top summit and use it as a platform for the opinions he is well known for having please read this follow up post.
      Best Christiane

  3. David Miller skriver:

    If you saw this, why didn’t you document it – take pictures or video from a cell phone?

  4. The Boss skriver:

    shut up bitch!

  5. Richard Pinneau skriver:

    There must be an error:
    >an audience of 800 (mainly men)
    If they were actually men they would have walked out.
    Suits, maybe. Not men.
    IMHO.

    • Justin skriver:

      They were actually men, and no they would not have walked out. That is childish chivalry that a “real man” is one who is of use to women. How many women ever care even a little when men are ridiculed far worse? That’s right, none. A real man doesn’t let women dictate his worth to him. And while these kinds of sexist comments would be wrong in a world striving for gender equality, reality shows women only want to end sexism against women, and not only dont care about sexism against men, they endorse it, and call it progress. So in the name of fairness, and the basic right to self preservation, men should be free to be just as sexist as the average women is, which is absurdly.

      • Bethany skriver:

        Lucky you–you’ve met a woman who actually wants gender equality and who hates sexism against men. I would be just as furious if this had been a woman saying these things about men to a room full of women. Don’t presume to speak for an entire gender. Also, it sounds like you need better female friends.

        • christiane skriver:

          Hi Bethany
          Thank you for your comment. I agree! I would also have been equally disappointed if it were the other way around. You might want to read my follow up post (take it through Google translate)
          My point is there is no reason to ridicule an important target group and valuable people who can and should buy your products and work for your company. Regardless of gender, color and sexuality. It just makes no sense.
          Best
          Christiane

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  7. Paul Meagher skriver:

    If you are quoting Dell correctly, these are really stone age attitudes. I haven’t been to tech conferences lately and would like to know if the male audiance reacted negatively to this as well, because I certainly did.

    • christiane skriver:

      Hi Paul
      Not during the summit. Most people were Dell employees and partners. But afterwards on social media there has been a lot of negative reactions from men.
      Best
      Christiane

      • Anja Monrad skriver:

        May be a minor correction fbut just for the record… the audience was not just Dell employees and partners – far from. The majority were existing customers and potential future customers.

        Anja Monrad,
        Dell

  8. Paul skriver:

    That social media widget on the left made me stop reading an otherwise interesting article. Very irritating.

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  10. Essandro Ronchi skriver:

    Mads Christensen should recall that many years ago one of the ones he defines as “bitch” generated him. That’s someting that no male on the Earth can do, even if he works in Dell.
    Some of my smartest IT colleague were female and I often regret the fact I can’t work with them any more.
    With respect,
    Alessandro Ronchi

  11. ameba skriver:

    Hey,

    First of all I feel sorry that you had to listen to all this talk. I would feel infuriated if I were there. I can only wonder how the few women that were there had to feel. I cannot find the words to adequately describe how wrong this is.

    Some of the comments here are no better. Trolling’s lame.

    Anyway I find it wonderful that you decided to pursue this topic further and wrote and then translated this article into English. I think it should be quoted on the Geek Feminism Wiki. Darn, women in IT have it hard as it is without such scandalous pricks coming along and saying things that, if they addressed ethnic minorities, would create a much bigger scandal, but somehow bashing women is still socially acceptable.

  12. Alan Orth skriver:

    Unbelievable… I wish I was there to witness it.

  13. Ryan McCoskrie skriver:

    @Richard Pinneau

    There must be an error:
    >an audience of 800 (mainly men)
    If they were actually men they would have walked out.
    Suits, maybe. Not men.

    Well said.
    To any feminist reading this, start distinguishing between men and man-shaped animals.

  14. marykate clark skriver:

    I am astounded to be reading this in 2012 …I did not think such cavemen and hate-mongers walked freely among us. It pains me.
    It’s not the least bit funny. It’s extremely offensive, inexcusably so, in fact.
    There’s not a shred of redeeming value to such comments, and they have NO PLACE WHATSOEVER in business gathering like that.
    I’m surprised they didn’t finish by killing some puppies as an encore.

    • Tina skriver:

      Especially, when I have always considered IT industry being the first frontier for ideologies in some sense. Yet it’s grim to see how much there can be extremely privileged people, who hate women simply some grudge they have.

  15. Santanu skriver:

    Racism is comedy is well practised before. reference Russel Peters. But there is a thin line tjat one should keep in mind.

  16. Justine skriver:

    reminds me of the Rev Jesse Peterson who thinks woman are ruining the world. They got no love in there souls. How on earth do men like that get a forum to spout there hateful vemom?

  17. Sciamachy skriver:

    Well, that’s knocked on the head any idea I had of buying an Alienware gaming PC from them any time soon. Sort your shit out, Dell.

    • Erin skriver:

      Please note, as a long-time Dell employee, a member of the Diversity Team, and a Facilitator for various womens executive programs, that MC does not speak for Dell nor represent Dell’s values in any way shape or form. I have never encountered sexism in the workforce at Dell, and where I have seen it, it is squashed immediately.
      My son is a proud owner of an Alienware and LOOOVES it. Please do not let the poor judgement of a PR rep or Event Manager sway your thoughts on Dell as a company.

  18. Pingback: Christiane Vejlø: DRESSCODE- BLUE TIE AND MALE « Dead Sheepdog

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  20. Jon Reade skriver:

    Reading this, I don’t think Mads Christensen is either a comedian or a media personality.
    He is, quite simply, just a cock.
    A small one at that.

    Talented, logical, analytical women in any mostly-male-populated profession have to work hard enough to get taken seriously without twat faces like him spouting his misogynistic bile. Dell should be ashamed for hiring him to speak and all of us in IT should veto buying their products.

    Perhaps if he’d really like to revert to the middle ages, we can put him in stocks and pelt him with rotten food and dog turds?

  21. Randi Harper skriver:

    Sorry, but until I actually see video evidence or one other person collaborating that they saw this same behavior, I’m going to not believe a word you just said. When you start out an article asking where all the women are, it’s obvious that you’re already biased and looking to be offended. I’m sure this was great for getting you blog hits, but it accomplished absolutely nothing else. If your only claim to fame is playing the victim, then maybe you should reevaluate the way you live your life. You’re not a feminist. Feminists aren’t victims.

  22. Jakob skriver:

    I’d be interested to know how the males in the audience reacted.
    Were they laughing along / applauding him / murmuring in disgust ?

    I slightly fear the answer may not make me less uncomfortable about reading this…

  23. Roxanne Skelly skriver:

    My response…
    Ada Lovelace, the ENIAC programmers (6 women), Grace Hopper, Lynn Conway… Dell wouldn’t exist without the very technical contributions of women…Heck, in my 25…yes…25 years of programming experience, I’ve made very technical contributions as well.

    And regardless of Dell’s lame response, the people in the room were mostly men, and were dell employees and associated folk. Says something about Dell’s hiring practice…the fact that they predominantly hire men and/or only send men to events like this.

    Nice try, Dell. Sorry for the lost customers.

    • Anja Monrad skriver:

      Dell do not just hire men, and did send both male and females to this event. The people in the room were not just Dell employees and associated partners – far from. The majority were existing customers as well as potential future customers.

      The statements made from stage do not in any way reflect Dell’s attitude on diversity topics nor could it be further from our values. We do – globally as well as locally in Denmark – drive and support many activities to promote and encourgae women in IT.

      Anja Monrad,
      Dell

  24. zak skriver:

    Thanks I wanted to read an article about you crying instead of interesting information from the summit.

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  26. Whether Mads is a comedian is not the point; even the most evolved society cannot claim that highly “ironic” negative jokes about women in the workplace are within acceptable brand standards.

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  28. Allison Zapata skriver:

    Apparently, Mads Christensen has a very wee penis. Poor guy.

  29. Joao skriver:

    he is gay

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  31. Pingback: Dell emcee celebrates an anti-female hostile workplace - CIO Symmetry

  32. russ stauffer skriver:

    Ya know – these people who do the anti-female thing are just dinosaurs sewing the seeds of their own demise. Any company, or for that matter, any organization, that does not take a stand to include females — such that they are represented in numbers, in all (ALL) levels of the organization — will in the end, lose the game. I’ve worked 32 years and have seen and managed examples of both worlds — the mostly men world, and the well balanced world. Trust me, the ‘mostly men’ world sucks at almost all facets of endeavor. The balanced world is amazingly better. AMAZINGLY better.

    You are right to bring this bad behavior into the spotlight. We don’t need to help these guys self destruct, or get too worked up over their views. The self-selected disadvantages these anti-female types will come back to bite them. They sew the seeds of their own downfall, while smugly joking the whole way.

  33. Orko Jacksen skriver:

    Get ball leukemia, Hitler lips!

  34. Jackson Manwoo skriver:

    I think he’s gay and wants to thank Hitler.

  35. LionelatDell skriver:

    Christiane: Know that I already connected with you on Twitter, but I wanted to make sure your readers saw the apology from Dell from this unfortunate event.

    Here’s the link from Twitter: http://bit.ly/Khwwnz

    And here’s the full response: http://bit.ly/J4YVAH

    Sincerely,
    Lionel Menchaca (LionelatDell)

  36. Eric skriver:

    Considering Dell hired Rob Enderle to consult with them on the development of their MP3 iPod killer, and on their iPhone killer – both of which failed – I’d say they have a really poor track record in hiring the right people. Considering how poorly constructed Dell products are these days, that’s not a big surprise.

    It’s a company that not only has lost its way, it’s lost its clue.

  37. Pingback: Dell distances itself from misogynist speaker | The Loop

  38. Imagine if this corporate MC was talking about blacks instead of women. Still think it’s funny or appropriate?

    “The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women blacks out. The quota of women blacks to men whites in your business is sound and healthy.” … (to the women blacks in the room) “What are you actually doing here?”

  39. Kathryn Rotondo skriver:

    Christiane, I’m really dismayed (if not surprised) to see that so many commenters, including women, are attacking you simply for sharing your experience.

    I agree with Randy that it would be great to hear other attendee’s thoughts, to have a better idea of the whole event. But I also don’t think it’s your responsibility to collect them.

    And I do trust your point of view as genuine and valid. If one person in the room felt uncomfortable, then Dell made a poor choice. “Entertainment value” is not a good excuse for alienating people. And trying to be popular by putting down other people is just lame.

    Thanks for speaking up. It helps to know that I’m not the only one who endures these things, and gives me courage to continue talking about them in spite of the backlash.

  40. makeinu skriver:

    You know what would have actually been funny?

    If one of those “men” in the audience had gone on stage, kicked Mads in the gonads, and said “Shut up, bitch!”

  41. hamletta skriver:

    Poor Dell. Weren’t they the ones who came out with pretty, pretty pink laptops for the ladies; special laptops that would help them shop for shoes?

    We ladies are such ingrates! We just laughed at the pretty, pretty pink laptops.

    And now we refuse to laugh at the funny, funny man, and instead stamp our tiny, impeccably shod feet and have ourselves a little hissy fit! Because we probably have PMS. All over the world. At the same time.

    This is what happens when you don’t listen to the women in your organization. You wind up stepping on your own dick in front of women all over the world.

  42. Anon skriver:

    I’ve been to two of the biggest conferences in the tech industry, for the most important platforms in tech right now – Apple’s WWDC and Google’s I/O. Both of those conferences are attended by the people who are actually making the software and Internet applications that we use on all of our favorite devices.

    And I can tell you that these conferences are 50 to 1 male. It’s the only time you’ll ever go to an event with 5500 people, and the line to the men’s room stretches down the hall, while women just walk right in (laughing, usually).

    This is not an insidious plot by a controlling Patriarchy, this is how the human race evolved. Except for the contributions of a few gifted women (I could also have said that 1 in 50 attendees were women), all of humanity’s advances in engineering and science we’re made by men.

    Accept it. And move on.

    • Kristjan Wager skriver:

      And of course, episodes like this has nothing to do with why there are so few women involved, right? Like the history of racial segregation (and slavery before then) obviously have nothing to do with the racial imbalance, right?

      Oh, and I hate to break it to you – all of humanity’s advances in engineering and science were based on the contributions of a few gifted people. The wast majority of people don’t contribute anything.

    • Kim skriver:

      I know this is late, but frankly, I don’t care; if I’m still reading this in 2013, other people are, too. I’m sure Marie Curie would have been quite surprised to hear she made no advancements in science, as would Dorothy Hodgkin have been. Gail Martin, perhaps?

      Discovery of Radium and Polonium? The determination of shell structure and shell configuration (where electrons are positioned) in atoms? The discovery of the helical structure in DNA? Nuclear fission, which was inaccurately attributed to a man? The discovery of jumping genes? Endosymbiotic Theory? All women.

      Oh, right, you wanted engineering, too. The coining of the term “software” in application to computers? The vacuum method for food canning? Insulated long-distance perishable food transportation? Windshield wipers? Typewriters that could make multiple copies without carbon paper? Radar jamming? The first computer compiler AND the origination of the concept of computer programs being written in English? Kevlar? Prosthetic limbs? Ceramic that could survive atmospheric re-entry? The invention of environmental engineering as a whole? Yeah… all women.

      I’d go on, but I think I’ve both made my point. So I guess what you’re saying is that all of those discoveries were mere trifles? Or does it not matter because men would have discovered these things eventually anyway?

      Oh, and while I’m here… *were.

  43. Lennart skriver:

    To all foreigners (non Scandinavians) here:

    You have no idea nor any understanding of the context of the remarks made by Mads Christensen:

    Scandinavian men have been subjected to criticism and ridicule for 40+ years now. Feminists have systematically attacked men and painted them as evil, corrupt, lazy and stupid. Recently, a book based on Valerie Solanas’ hateful anti-male SCUM-manifesto was heralded on public money taken mostly from male tax payers and just a couple of days ago men were once again denounced as useless and redundant by a famous public figure.

    One man turns the tables and all hell is loose and feminists from all over the globe try to meddle with Scandinavian affairs. Back off!

    • Kristjan Wager skriver:

      To all the non-Danes here: Lennart is writing typical misogynistic apologetics.

      Men are in no way being treated like second class citizen, and the Danish society is a fair way from equality between the sexes, with women still having trouble getting into leadership positions and being subjected to sexism regularly. Every time anyone dares to complain about this, they are attacked as being “political correct”, humourless, and for picking on the poor defenseless men.

      This is of course bullshit.

      • Lennart skriver:

        Kære Kristjan Wager,

        Drop beskyldningerne og læs det her:
        http://www.manfo.dk/node/99

        Med venlig hilsen,
        Lennart Kiil

      • Hans skriver:

        I’m not so sure what is “typical” here. It appears that typical might apply much more to your defamation of Lennart.

        I’m not scandinavian but as a man I have been at the receiving line of blames of sexism often enough. In my opinion much of this sexism debate is pure hype and craze and typical of a climate of “polical correctness”.

        Actually I find it very outrageous how easy nowadays people are blamed to be sexists. You all shall remember that this is quite an insult, it really sickens to see it applied so often and so often without real warrant.

  44. Sara Conrad skriver:

    Have always disliked Dell, this confirms it. An apology is not enough as this whole thing can not be excused.

  45. Pingback: Dell apologizes for misogynistic comments at conference VIA PR Daily

  46. Lars Erickson skriver:

    . BTW nice articles on the IPhone bra pocket and the playboy app. Really empowering for women to have an iPhone pocket in their bras. #opportunistic

  47. The Surfer skriver:

    Hmmm. This all seems abit opportunistic. Your articles on an iPhone bra pocket and also the playboy app don’t give the impression of someone who has been championing the cause of women….But maybe this is your new thing and maybe iPhone bra pockets are what women are really looking for. I think I might turn my love of fashion and talk about how blatantly sexist that industry is and how such few straight men get a real shot!! I thought Denmark was pretty liberal!! As per Anon says above this is the way we are built and it’s not sexist to say women are not interested in IT -it’s a fact of life. And if you are telling me you would prefer a brand new wardrobe or the latest Gucci handbag for you Christmas present or the new iPad – it’s not sexist to say what your answer might be. All this a bit little bit strange in my mind.

    • Kristjan Wager skriver:

      Or maybe you should read some of her earlier writings, before forming an opinion?

      And saying that women are not interested in IT seems very similar to claims in the past that women could not handle science, law etc. All of that turned out to be wrong. The same will be the case with IT.

    • Alie skriver:

      Wow, the way we are built? Most of my female friends are also into technology, science and definitely IT. Most of the people I play MMORPGS with tend to be WOMEN. Most of us would love either an iPad or a Gucci bag, probably an iPad a bit more.

      Please pull your head out of your butt and realise that this is 2012.

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  53. Dominique skriver:

    Thank you for alerting me to the fact that I should never buy Dell products again. Will let all my contacts know about this. After all, women make about 80-90 % of purchasing decisions in the marketplace.

    • Hans skriver:

      Do you believe that it is right what you are planning and announcing here?

      If you are tasked with purchase in your company, then your number one priority has to be to make the best purchase in the interest of the company. But instead you seem to believe that it is okay if you exclude one vendor, thus accepting that you might not make the best decision for your employer, solely because you are personally upset.

      In my opinion this should be ground to can you. Harsh as it might sound, but your personal believes and sentiments MUST NOT play any role in your professional decisions. Otherwise you are doing a very bad job and should be terminated.

  54. Pingback: Corporate Responsibility, the Glass Ceiling, and Public Opinion | Balancing Money and Life

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  56. Scott skriver:

    Congratulations for getting past racism and all the way to sexism. The 21st century is going to be exciting for you. Soon you should have the Internet too, where you can learn how every other modern culture on the planet makes you look like neanderthals.

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  59. N.I. Paun skriver:

    Waw! I can believe a company can afford this kind of behavior in 2012. Now I know for sure there will be NO Dell computer in my office in the future.
    I think that’s extremely offensive and there’s just one move to hit them where it hurts, do not buy any Dell products, there are panty of other options.

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  62. WTFark skriver:

    I see trolling is alive and well in the idiot trail. Next you’ll tell me it’s OK that a male co-worked pulled my hair. Afterall, it’s all just a little fun. I wonder if it would still be fun if he was cock-punched when I walked by?

  63. Tariku Hussein skriver:

    Irony, ladies, irony!

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  65. a728350 skriver:

    I’ve said that least 728350 times. SCK was here

  66. Nannette skriver:

    Heya i’m for the first time here. I found this board and I in finding It truly useful & it helped me out a lot. I’m hoping tо presеnt οnе thing аgain and
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  68. ox skriver:

    OMFG. You all really confirm the stereotype ‘stupid, hysteric women’, don’t you. You whine about trolling, yet you allow a real world troll to wind you up and start banging the old sexist drum – men are all assholes. And he has won.

    You know, it’s the mark of a loser to let yourself be defined by provocation and consumed by grievance and hate. Enjoy victimhood, you’re obviously not strong enough to get over it.

    Fucking idiots.

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  70. Jeffjteln skriver:

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